Did you know that thirty years ago 80% of the resources in an organization were dedicated to operations, and 20% to projects? Today, that ratio has flipped.  The C-suite depends on the company’s project management experts to keep cross-functional operations running as smoothly as possible.

To take us behind the curtain to better understand the dynamics of project management within an organization, we have on today’s show, Trevor Kacedon, Director of Project Management at Radienz Living. Listen as we chat about the value of having a Project Management Officer in the C-Suite, as well as how Trevor has excelled in his career while being on the autism spectrum.

Posted by

Posted by

SDL Media Team



A Free Gift From Karan To You

Want to get a jumpstart on understanding your own leadership triggers?


Take my free quiz to learn which tactics have the superpowers to
motivate (or manipulate) you to jump into action!


  1. How to best leverage a Project Management Office.

2. Why it may be corporate quicksand if the company does not have a Chief Projects Officer at the table within the C-suite.

3.  How Trevor successfully grew his career while being on the autism spectrum.

4.  Trevor’s addition to the LATTOYG Playbook:
Trevor shared that, “If you’re not paying attention to it, you can’t control it.  Many times organizations are putting their heads in the sand or have blinders on to very difficult problems.  Hiding problems is a bit challenge and something a leader should not be doing.”   

“If you’re not paying attention to it, you can’t control it.”


    [0:53]  Listen to what spectacular personal event happened to Trevor during the pandemic .

    [2:27]  What project management professionals absolutely cannot do if they want to succeed.

    [4:30]  What hinders orgs from delivering initiatives efficiently and with high quality.

    [8:08]  How to launch a new Project Management Office at a company.

    [12:45]  Hear Trevor clarify what a project manager is as is not.

    [15:33]  Why developing a C-suite-level role for project management can truly optimize an organization.

    [21:32]  Listen to Trevor discuss how he effectively leads while being on the autism spectrum.

    [24:17]  Signature Segment-  FULL DISCLOSURE:  Insights about Trevor include chewing, cars and vinyl

    [33:55]  Signature Segment-  KARAN’S TAKE

    Trevor Kacedon has 15 years of experience in Project Management in everything from biologic oncology therapeutics, to chocolate, essential oils and now home care products you use every day of your life. He’s lead the development of global teams, worked for companies large and small and is a relentless fighter for the fair treatment of employees.

    Exasperated with the dearth of leadership in corporate America today Trevor focuses on what prevents hard working, dedicated teams from unleashing their full potential and fills that gap – unleashing the powerful potential of the team you already have.

    –  LinkedIn
    –  Articles written by Trevor:


    Favorite Book:  Gung Ho by Ken Blanchard
    – Article:  How CEO’s Think About Corporate Sustainability 
    – Article: The Lead at the Top of Your Game Leadership Development Experience

    – Article:  Why a Chief Projects Officer is Critical
    – Article:  8 Project Management Mistakes to Avoid at All Costs

    Shockingly Different Leadership Logo

    Episode Sponsor

    This podcast episode is sponsored by Shockingly Different Leadership, the leader in on-demand People, Talent Development & Organizational Effectiveness professional services, all designed to up-level leader capability and optimize workforces to do their best work.

    Click the plus button on the tab to access the written transcript:
    Episode 3 | Leading a Project Management Office With Human Ingenuity w/ Trevor Kacedon

    Trevor Kacedon 0:00
    You’re being called in because there’s the recognition that something isn’t working anymore. Something was working and, for some reason, it just doesn’t work anymore. And usually, it’s because the company has progressed to a certain point where what got them to where they are isn’t gonna get them to the next level. But, unfortunately, when you’re called in, it… there’s usually a mess that you have to clean up, too.

    Voiceover 0:25
    Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

    Karan Rhodes 0:52
    Hey there, everyone! This is Karan and welcome to today’s episode. You know, in my experience, I don’t know of a single CEO or COO who doesn’t depend upon the company’s project management experts to keep cross-functional operations running as smoothly as possible. The desire for critical business initiatives to be executed on time and within budget, especially when multiple key stakeholders are involved, is truly a pipe dream without effective project management. To take us behind the curtain to better understand the dynamics of project management within an organization, we have on today’s show Trevor Kacedon. He’s the Director of Project Management at Radiance Living. Trevor is a star in the project management field who has also led project management teams and enterprises such as Young Living Essential Oils, Godiva chocolates, and Bristol Myers Squibb. Listen as we chat about the value of having a project management officer in the C suite, as well as how Trevor has excelled in his career, while being on the autism spectrum. Be sure to listen to his addition to our leadership execution playbook and my closing segment called “Karan’s Take” where I share tips on how to use today’s insights to further sharpen your leadership acumen. And now, enjoy the show.

    Well, hi, Trevor! It’s so great for you to have agreed to come on our podcast today. We thank you so much for your time, and welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast.

    Trevor Kacedon 2:41
    Thank you so much! I really appreciate it; it’s very exciting.

    Karan Rhodes 2:45
    Awesome! Well, before we really get cracking on some of the interesting stories and nuggets that you have for us, why don’t you share with our audiences a little bit about your personal and professional life for as much as you feel comfortable, obviously.

    Trevor Kacedon 3:22
    Sure, absolutely! So, you know, for the past 20 years, I’ve been a progressive Project Management Professional in so many different areas: oil and gas, pharmaceuticals, chocolates, consumer goods, manufacturing and construction. And for the past 10 years, I’ve been… my husband and I have been married and we just, last year, adopted a teenage boy, during the middle of the pandemic.

    Karan Rhodes 5:15
    Congratulations! But I’m sure that brought a lot of joy in your life, especially in such a crazy time.

    Trevor Kacedon 5:25
    Oh, yeah! Absolutely.

    Karan Rhodes 5:27
    Wonderful! If you don’t mind sharing, how are you enjoying being dads?

    Trevor Kacedon 5:33
    You know, I really feel like I’m taken to it like a duck to water, which is a shock to everybody I know. And, for me, uh… you know, it’s uh… it… for me, it’s more… comes more naturally than I expected it to, which is very exciting.

    Karan Rhodes 5:33
    Well, wonderful. Well, I have a 22 year old and I’ll just say, enjoy the years because you blink and they are absolutely gone. So, enjoy the time, Trevor.

    Trevor Kacedon 5:33
    Yeah, I hear you on that.

    Karan Rhodes 5:33
    Well, Trevor, I know that you are a project manager extraordinaire or project leaders extraordinaire, and I would just love for you to share with our listeners a little bit more about, you know, what it’s like being a project management leader. And, uh… you know, some of the ups and downs that you’ve had to tackle during your career.

    Trevor Kacedon 5:36
    Well, one thing I always tell people when they call in somebody to develop a project management office or even just have their first project manager is you’re being called in because there’s the recognition that something isn’t working anymore. Something was working and, for some reason, it just doesn’t work anymore. And usually, it’s because the company has progressed to a certain point where what got them to where they are isn’t gonna get them to the next level. But, unfortunately, when you’re called in, it… there’s usually a mess that you have to clean up, too. So to do… to do this work, you have to be really organized, but also very flexible, which is very difficult. You can’t be that rigid person who is unwilling to go with the flow, while things are just moving through the pipeline and getting things into a better place. You can’t just stop everything and start anew; that’s not how business works.

    Karan Rhodes 5:48
    No, it sure isn’t. It sure isn’t. And I’m… I’m just curious, for the project leaders that I know, I always hear them talking about all the organizational dynamics that are going on, in their jobs. And sometimes things are going well and, then, sometimes there’s a lot of dysfunction. And so I’m just curious, have you seen those… that in your experience?

    Trevor Kacedon 5:48
    Oh, absolutely and, frankly, if you haven’t seen dysfunction in an organization, I don’t think you’ve worked in very many organizations.

    Karan Rhodes 6:17
    That’s true.

    Trevor Kacedon 6:22
    It’s just normal, but really, project management is obviously process-focused. But a lot of times, when you’re coming in as a Project Management Professional, there’s a cultural problem. There’s a cultural… either it’s a change that is coming, or the culture doesn’t fit for purpose anymore. And, so, you can put in all of the processes and procedures that, you know, the PMP tells you to put together. But if you don’t work on the culture, it’s… it’s pointless.

    Karan Rhodes 6:57
    Mhmm, tell me a little bit more.

    Trevor Kacedon 6:59
    Yet, so many organizations run into becoming siloed, whether they’re big or small. It’s natural for us to kind of just put on blinders and stay with within our own specialization but, also, unfortunately, that means that we’re not communicating outside of our specialization. And when we’re not reaching across the aisle to, as I say to my team members, to shake the hands of our team members, and see what’s going on, we can’t get things across the finish line as quickly as we could or even with as great quality as we could.

    Karan Rhodes 7:39

    Trevor Kacedon 7:40
    There are times where I’ve run into organizations where, uhm… the project lead doesn’t speak to certain functional areas in an organization just because it’s…

    Karan Rhodes 7:50

    Trevor Kacedon 7:50
    … the… the idea is, “We don’t bother them; they just do their piece and they hand us the work.” Well, why aren’t we bothering them? Why aren’t we talking to them? You can’t be in an organization, but not be of the organization…

    Karan Rhodes 8:05
    Great point.

    Trevor Kacedon 8:05
    …if that makes sense.

    Karan Rhodes 8:06
    No, excellent point!

    Trevor Kacedon 8:08
    We all are working from the same box of tools, and we… we need to be able to communicate; it’s… it’s a big challenge. And frankly, one that I see is… for… unfortunately, in my opinion getting worse. And I don’t know if that’s because of the pandemic or just the way things are generally progressing in the business world with how quickly things are… are churning.

    Karan Rhodes 8:33
    It’s probably a mix of both I would guess, uhm… you know, people are… you know, have found their new normal is no longer getting to find their new normal. They have found their new normal, and they’re trying to navigate through that.

    Trevor Kacedon 8:46

    Karan Rhodes 8:47
    So, in my experience, and you know, as humans, we’re not really great on change sometimes so trying to figure that out can be a huge challenge.

    Trevor Kacedon 8:58
    Absolutely! Absolutely. I mean the pandemic added a whole new level to it. And, frankly, makes my job a thousand times more difficult because I’ve always said that it takes a hundred emails or text messages or whatever to accomplish what one or two conversations face-to-face can accomplish.

    Karan Rhodes 9:18
    I can imagine.

    Trevor Kacedon 9:19
    So it is… it’s a whole new dynamic; it’s a lot more of learning how to manage virtual relationships. And so it’s going to be interesting to see where we are in another year or two.

    Karan Rhodes 9:33
    I bet it is. Now, I know, Trevor, you’ve had a lot of experience, even establishing program management offices, as well as stepping in and leading already established ones but I’m really curious, especially on the ones that you’ve had to establish, like as a leader, where do you start? Because you have… you know, a new… well, maybe you have to recruit, you know, for folks. I’m not quite sure. But where do you start? And what norms do you try to establish early on with your teams to set them up for success?

    Trevor Kacedon 10:13
    Right. So I start at the… at the very base level of having a common understanding of what our goal is uh… as the team and how that goal feeds into the organization’s goals and objectives. If they haven’t, some organizations don’t sometimes, but overall, the first thing that I do is make sure the team is aligned in a common goal. That way, we all have something to aim for; we’re all clear that’s our end uh… that’s our end target. How we get there is… is going to be many different ways.

    Karan Rhodes 10:49

    Trevor Kacedon 10:50
    And it’s going to look different for every different person on the team. But first and foremost, a common goal-we have to have that. And that’s not something that I hand to the team; it’s not valuable if I say to the team, “This is our goal.” What’s valuable is when we as the team sit together, and we discuss what it is that we’re actually delivering uh… to our end users and to our customers. So, for example, you know, we really dug into… in my… one of my previous roles, we weren’t really delivering just products, but we were delivering products to help people live a healthier, cleaner lifestyle, and also help people provide for their families. And it really helps change the dynamic when you’re looking at it that way. You’re not just a cog in a machine anymore; you’re actively contributing not only to the company’s success, to your local economy success, but you’re contributing to an individual person’s personal success. And that ties you more to the work that we’re doing; that gives you a sense of purpose. Now, so, once you’ve… once you’ve got your goals, you know, I can train… we can train anybody any… any ways to manage a project, every project management system that there is under the sun. And, you know, we did so in my previous role where we had a team of 23 project managers. And if I remember off the top of my head, maybe four of them had any actual previous project management experience.

    Karan Rhodes 12:28
    Wow, only four?

    Trevor Kacedon 12:29
    Only four and it wasn’t a huge problem, because as long as somebody has the aptitude to be able to learn the software and the techniques, then, they can be trained. The biggest key, the biggest challenge is culture and goal alignment. Is somebody going to fit with the team? Because uh… what… I don’t want my team to turn into a microcosm of the problems in the larger organization. They need to work together; they can’t be siloed. They need to be able to reach across the aisle and talk to them about what’s going on and what what problems they’re facing.

    Karan Rhodes 13:10

    Trevor Kacedon 13:11
    So, yeah, once we’ve moved on from that, then we… we discuss what our team motto should be, you know. That’s uh… we all… I feel like, you know, we need to have some kind of mottos if we’re a little business inside of the organization.

    Karan Rhodes 13:28
    Of course! Rallying cry, Right?

    Trevor Kacedon 13:30
    Yeah, exactly! That’s our rallying cry and every morning, we… will start with that rallying cry after our 30-minute huddle because we’ll go around the… the room to discuss, “Are there any big challenges? Anybody needs help with? What’s on everybody’s plate for the day?” to really focus everybody as to what’s going on today, and give everybody that… that space to share solutions or challenges with the rest of the team. And, then, they can have their own breakaway sessions if they… they need to, and at… at the end of that, then, we… you know, we lead off with our rallying cry, so to speak. And uh… and that’s that’s really how we start. That’s the very beginning of creating a project management office. You know, none of that has… you’ll find none of that inside of the PM block; it’s not… it has nothing specific to project management. What we’re doing is building a team.

    Karan Rhodes 14:31
    That’s right. No, you’re absolutely right. And I’m curious, in your opinion, what are… is one of the biggest things that can derail someone from being successful on a project management team? Like, what are some of the biggest watch outs?

    Trevor Kacedon 14:49
    The… the biggest watch outs for a project management team member is that there’s this … what’s the right word? There’s this drive to take pieces of projects that are undesirable, and move them into the project managers’ responsibility. So there’s a… there’s an under… a misunderstanding of what a project manager is and what a project manager isn’t. And the way that I always break it down is that we aren’t the ones actually doing the work. We’re in the trenches with you. We’re telling you what needs to be done and when, but we know we can’t do your job.

    Karan Rhodes 15:33

    Trevor Kacedon 15:34
    We can’t do that. So we need to get team members to align to that and it’s a constant reminder of this what a project manager is and what a project manager isn’t. Just like I wouldn’t ask an R&D person to go and do some graphic design, you’re not gonna ask your project manager to go and do the graphic design or go create a new formula, you know? We couldn’t; it will be a mess.

    Karan Rhodes 16:00

    Trevor Kacedon 16:00
    …that’s the biggest… uh, the biggest challenge, I would say.

    Karan Rhodes 16:04
    (intelligible) And do you think that program management offices have the right level of attention by the suite… C suite? Or do you have to… what I’m trying to figure out is do you have to fight for their attention? Or are they banging down your door… needing updates and help then think that (intelligible) partners.

    Trevor Kacedon 16:26
    You know, we definitely need to fight for C suite attention and that’s a big problem because the C suite usually is the one that realizes “There’s a problem; we need a project management office. Let’s get one in place.” But it’s a matter of partnering and teamwork; they have to partner with us to help us guide things through the pipeline to match what the C suite team executives… what the executive team’s goals and objectives are. But a lot of times, they… the C suite executives will treat a project management office as, “Okay, we brought you in, (intelligible) our problem’s fixed.” And that… that’s not what we’re… we’re there for. We’re not… We’re not there for that.

    Karan Rhodes 17:14

    Trevor Kacedon 17:16
    So, I definitely think it requires more C suite interaction

    Karan Rhodes 17:20
    And, then, it sounds like, uhm… and I know not all organizations are open to this but it sounds like having a service-level agreement conversation with the C suite is valuable, so that they know, you know, what you’re responsible for and what you can, what you said you can and can’t do and what types of support the overall team and function needs and how they should think about prioritizing what you all do. Am I off base?

    Trevor Kacedon 17:52
    No, no, that… that’s absolutely right. And if you want to even go one step further, I’m a big proponent of developing a new C suite… the C suite role that is project-focused.

    Karan Rhodes 18:04
    Oh, tell me more.

    Trevor Kacedon 18:06
    In large organizations, you’ve got projects that are running upwards from a month to years in your pipeline. And it could be products, it could be internal projects just to optimize things, but an Enterprise Project Management Office should be able to support all of those, whether it’s direct hands on or branches off that team that are say out in your warehouses or down at the store level or what have you. But there… in my opinion, there really needs to be more involvement of project management and leadership at all levels of the… of organizations. Every department has some project going on whether they call it a project or not…

    Karan Rhodes 18:54
    Yes, they sure do.

    Trevor Kacedon 18:57
    …and every project… every department does not have a project manager and nor does that project have the visibility of leadership. And it’s beneficial because we need to get that visibility all the way up to leadership to show “Hey, first and foremost, these are the things that these departments are working on and why their bandwidth may be constrained.” or “Hey, these are the things people are working on and this is where your budget dollars aren’t going-to work on these projects.” There’s so much invisibility to that and now that we’re in a much more remote work environment, it’s going to become even more difficult to get visibility to it. Not saying that it’s… it’s all bad, you know, sometimes there’s things that we don’t need to bring to the C suites’ attention. Goodness here is that.

    Karan Rhodes 19:47
    They have a lot on their plates, too.

    Trevor Kacedon 19:48
    They have so much on their plate but I see a lot of organizations where there’s not a lot of leadership on how to execute the overall company’s objectives. Whereas, in reality, at least to my mind, it’s not that difficult. Outline the objectives, let your project team break those down into manageable, digestible pieces into how they flow down through every step in the organization, and, then, the solutions, the resolutions to those objectives bubble up from the bottom.

    Karan Rhodes 20:28
    That makes a ton of sense.

    Trevor Kacedon 20:29
    And… and I haven’t seen… I haven’t seen any companies really do that yet.

    Karan Rhodes 20:36
    That makes a ton of sense and so I’m gonna ask you this, Trevor, say we had every CEO in the world listening to our podcast here and you could give them one piece of advice, what is one uh… piece we should add to our leadership playbook to help them think more strategically about program management offices.

    Trevor Kacedon 21:06
    Hmmm, I would say if you’re not paying attention to it, then you can’t control it.

    Karan Rhodes 21:13
    Hmm, say more.

    Trevor Kacedon 21:15
    A lot of times, organizations are putting blinders onto their heads and the head in the sand of a really difficult problems. And I’m not saying project management is the solution to all of it.

    Karan Rhodes 21:27

    Trevor Kacedon 21:28
    But uhm… hiding from problems is… is a big challenge and should not be something that a leader should be doing.

    Karan Rhodes 21:37
    No, great point. And if I can add on to that, I love your idea of adding a… a role at the C suite level, because that’s where a lot of the decisions are made in those staff meetings and in those conversations. Having someone that’s representing your function at that level, if they don’t have someone already, they should consider incorporating that type of role upfront. Do you disagree?

    Trevor Kacedon 22:06
    No, I absolutely agree. Absolutely. When you don’t have somebody that’s just dedicated to that, it’s very difficult for that person to not have a bias to what their originating position is, whether you’re in supply chain marketing or R&D. If you have project thrown on top of that, you’re going to be supply chain marketing or R&D first…

    Karan Rhodes 22:30

    Trevor Kacedon 22:30
    …and, then, project management. It’s really important to have somebody that’s solely project-focused.

    Karan Rhodes 22:37
    I totally agree. I totally agree. I don’t want to get you off the podcast before having you share a little uh… not a little, a wonderful, interesting fact. And I wanted to put it out there to our listeners because we all, you know, merge work and life together. We all, you know, kind of prioritize our… our days. I don’t know anyone who totally shifts one away from the other but you were so generous to share that you’re on the spectrum, of the autism spectrum. And I found that so fascinating, because you’re such a high performing later, number one, anyway. But, then, number two, it’s not something that is normally talked about in…

    Trevor Kacedon 23:24

    Karan Rhodes 23:21
    …the corporate world. And you have found ways to be successful and I won’t even say in spite of it because it’s part of you, it’s part of your life; it’s part of who you are, but I just wanted individuals to know out there that those on the spectrum can be exemplary leaders just like you and I’d love to share… you to share a little bit about how you approach the world of work.

    Trevor Kacedon 23:54
    Oh yeah, absolutely and I’m still learning. I was diagnosed when I was in my late 30s, which shocked me, but then when… when it was… the diagnosis when it was read out to me, it was like, “Well, obviously, why didn’t anybody know this?” But the big thing that I have learned, a big takeaway for me is that I need to talk about it at work. I need people to understand that I’m not neurotypical; I’m neuro atypical, and my mind doesn’t operate in certain ways. So, I’ve literally had conversations with my manager saying, “Listen, I need you to be exceptionally direct with me and don’t give me nuance or political speak because my brain cannot process that because I’m on the spectrum. I need direct and literal conversation, otherwise, I’m not going to pick up on the nuance.” And I have to say, it’s been really interesting seeing how open my co-workers and my managers have been to it…

    Karan Rhodes 23:21
    Oh, that’s wonderful.

    Trevor Kacedon 25:10
    …It’s… it’s really been more nerve-wracking leading up to the discussion, but being able to talk about it and say, “Hey, this is how you… I need you to approach me. I’m trying to approach… like meet you where you are, I need you to meet me where I am.” You know, it’s a two way street.

    Karan Rhodes 23:21
    It is a two way street. And I just wanted, not congratulate you, but just to say what a fantastic… and… effort to have a courageous conversation with your boss and peers, because maybe as an organizational effectiveness specialist, I have come across individuals that have had a variety of things that they needed to disclose with their managers, just so that they know how to work more effectively together and some are open to it and to be honest with you, some aren’t. And so, you know, having an advocate in the workplace has been invaluable to those that has gone well. And for those that that hasn’t gone well, honestly, they left the organizations because they weren’t getting what they needed to be, you know, successful in the workplace so I’m glad to hear you’re in a good situation right now.

    Trevor Kacedon 26:25
    Yes, yes. Knock on wood, thank goodness, and kudos to… to the leaders at my organization, definitely.

    Karan Rhodes 23:21
    Definitely, kudos them. All right, Trevor, well, we’re gonna do our last segment…

    Trevor Kacedon 26:40

    Karan Rhodes 23:21
    …called “Full Disclosure”. These are fun questions that we ask so that our listeners get to learn a little bit more about you on a personal level. And, so, my first question to you is, what is your favorite way to relax and decompress?

    Trevor Kacedon 23:21
    My favorite way to relax and decompress? I love to put on some old school jazz records (intelligible) vinyl and… and have a cocktail and just sit in my living room and just listen to music and… and just chill out. It is… yeah, it’s… it doesn’t even have to be a cocktail, it could just be a cup of coffee.

    Karan Rhodes 23:21
    No, I love a cocktail. So what’s your favorite cocktail?

    Trevor Kacedon 27:30
    Well, bourbon straight up!

    Karan Rhodes 27:33
    Oh my gosh. Okay, so I’m a wimp, but I love a nice glass of Chardonnay. That is my favorite, so… and I love jazz, too. We have a lot of common there.

    Trevor Kacedon 27:44
    Oh, nice.

    Karan Rhodes 27:46
    Yes! All right, my next question for you is what is one of your biggest pet peeves? What drives you crazy sometimes?

    Trevor Kacedon 27:59
    It’s the silliest thing-chewing noises. I don’t know what it is about…

    Karan Rhodes 28:04
    What was that?

    Trevor Kacedon 28:05
    Chewing noises!

    Karan Rhodes 28:06
    Oh, chewing noises!

    Trevor Kacedon 28:09
    I have no idea what that’s about, but it drives me up a wall.

    Karan Rhodes 28:13
    I can imagine! That’s so interesting. Um, do you have a favorite sport or sports team?

    Trevor Kacedon 28:26
    I don’t. I could probably tell you absolutely nothing about sports.

    Karan Rhodes 28:31

    Trevor Kacedon 28:32
    I don’t follow a single one.

    Karan Rhodes 28:35
    What’s… What’s the hobby of yours that you might have?

    Trevor Kacedon 28:39
    Cars. So…

    Karan Rhodes 28:40

    Trevor Kacedon 28:41
    …whether it’s reading about cars or working on classic cars, it… that’s my thing. I love… I love machinery because it’s… it, to me, it’s very straightforward. It either works one way or it doesn’t.

    Karan Rhodes 28:55
    Totally, you’re right!

    Trevor Kacedon 28:57
    And cars have always just fascinated me, just, especially over the last hundred years how technology has just changed so dramatically. And, like now, you can already see we’re on another hyper path of changing technology in the automotive world. So, to me, it’s just endlessly fascinating.

    Karan Rhodes 29:17
    Now, I can… yes, we are. Yes, and… I don’t know if I’ll see it in my lifetime, but I bet that we will have some sort of flying cars, and I do think they’re gonna use more of the bullet trains more around the world.

    Trevor Kacedon 29:35
    I hope so.

    Karan Rhodes 29:36

    Trevor Kacedon 29:36
    I hope so with the bullet trains, we… we really need a lot more of that, especially here in the United States. And we need to make it easier to get across the country.

    Karan Rhodes 29:46
    We do! I mean, take the… you know, I’ve taken the train from London to Paris many times. I’ve traveled quite extensively globally and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, if we have this in this states, that would have been fantastic!”

    Trevor Kacedon 30:01
    Right, right, right! I’m always amazed with Europe’s rail infrastructure.

    Karan Rhodes 30:06
    Me, too. Me, too. Definitely. Alright, Trevor, so this one is called “Turn the Table”. So, I’m gonna give you an opportunity to ask a question of me.

    Trevor Kacedon 30:18

    Karan Rhodes 30:19

    Trevor Kacedon 30:20
    So, it is Friday afternoon, work is over, and it’s been a really stressful week. Where are we gonna find you?

    Karan Rhodes 30:31
    Oh, that’s a good one. You will find me on date night with the hubby. So ever since we dated, and we’ve been married for close to 20 years now, but we’ve always had date nights on Friday nights. Every Friday at 7:30, we have it, and we alternate weeks on who plans. So, the catch is you have to call the other person at 4:30 PM on that Friday to let them know what we’re doing so we can dress appropriately or “Are you ready?” So keep a little spice in it in the planning and we try to one up each other all the time, obviously. But yes, date night every Friday night. And to be honest with you, Trevor, I have always, you know, shared this fact with work and people. So it’s gotten to be quite well known around my professional and personal circles that okay, Karan and Victor aren’t gonna be available Friday nights, because they have date nights. They always work and plan around that.

    Trevor Kacedon 31:44
    Oh, that’s sweet!

    Karan Rhodes 31:45
    Great question, though. All right. And, then, one last thing, Trevor, we try to tie in uhm… as you know, I’ve done a lot of research on leadership tactics of effective leaders and I shared with you the seven that I’ve written a book about. And I’d love for you to share with the audience, if there’s one that really popped out or resonated with you as you think about in your career, what was one of those tactics that have really helped either you be successful, or you’ve seen that help other leaders to be successful?

    Trevor Kacedon 32:22
    Oh, absolutely. Leading with courageous agility. I mean, really, it could be the… the title to my entire work history…

    Karan Rhodes 32:32

    Trevor Kacedon 32:34
    …of having to… having to go through life neuro atypical, but also having to be in the project management field, you really have to stand up for what you believe in and doing the right thing.

    Karan Rhodes 32:49

    Trevor Kacedon 32:49
    And whether it’s the right thing on a project, the right thing when it comes to diversity, inclusion, and quality at the office place, if you’re not able to be a stand for what is right and for what you believe in, then, in my opinion, you’re not leading yet. You have to be able to lead with your beliefs before you can really become a leader.

    Karan Rhodes 33:23
    That’s so true and I cannot top that. So we’re gonna close out the podcast episode but Trevor, thank you so much for joining us. There were tons of nuggets of information that I think our audience members will find valuable. And uhm… and thank you for leading with courageous agility by sharing so much information on the podcast, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

    Trevor Kacedon 33:49
    Well, thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed it and I hope you do, too.

    Karan Rhodes 33:53
    All right, take care.

    I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Trevor Kacedon. Links to his bio, his entry into our leadership playbook, and additional resources on project management can be found in the show notes, both on your favorite podcast platform of choice and at Now for “Karan’s Take”, did you know that 30 years ago 80 percent of the resources in an organization were dedicated to operations and only 20 percent to projects? Well, today, that ratio is split, and despite this fact, most organizations still don’t have a senior leader overseeing all project activities. I totally agree with Trevor’s recommendation to include the project management function at the C suite level because this is where major strategy and operation decisions are made. And a chief project officer definitely could provide intense value and insight on how to avoid catastrophes before they happen. I mean, think about the time and money which could be saved if high risk operations are course corrected before implementation. As a CEO or board member, I know I would welcome that any day of the week. I mean wouldn’t you? Successful project management professionals must definitely possess a high acumen to effectively lead with both strategic decision making and a drive for results. And if you’re curious, more info on helping your teams develop these two leadership tactics and more can be found using the short link which is B-I-T dot L. Y. forward slash develop your game Thanks so much for listening and see you next week.

    Voiceover 35:44
    And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast where we help you leave your seats at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K-a-r-a-n. And if you liked the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand project or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Bye for now.

    Email:  podcast [at]

    Want to be a LATTOYG Podcast Guest?

    Want Karan to be Your Podcast Guest?

    Want to be a Podcast Sponsor/Advertiser?

    Like the Show? Please Leave a Review

    Need help with a People, Learning or OD initiative?

    Let SDL help provide your company strategic expertise, cost savings, flexibility and greater efficiency on your next organizational effectiveness project.

    Check out our picklist of services or click button below to schedule a complimentary Discovery call.

    via our podcast alerts


    Subscribe now to discover why thousands of monthly listeners who are passionate about doing their best work prioritize time each week to listen to the Lead at the Top of Your Game podcast.


    Shockingly Different Leadership is a human capital professional services consultancy that provides organizations access to the best consulting expertise in the areas of Talent Development, Organizational Development, and Human Resources – on an on-demand, project, or contract basis.


    4480-H South Cobb Drive
    PMB 219
    Smyrna, GA 30080


    2121 NewMarket Parkway
    Ste. 108
    Marietta, GA 30067


    Customer Service Email:

    Call or Text:

    #Office Hours

    8:30 AM – 6:30 PM
    Weekends By Appointment