Are you ready to unleash your intellectual horsepower and tap your limitless cognitive potential? Are you prepared to unlock the hidden power of asking the “why” questions? Are you curious about the battle between growth and fixed mindsets? Get ready to unlock your true leadership potential and embark on a transformative journey toward becoming a divergent leader.

Dr. Berni Doyle is a remarkable individual who has dedicated her career to making a positive impact in the healthcare industry. She is a dynamic healthcare leader on a transformative journey of unleashing her leadership potential through the power of divergent leadership. Meet Dr. Berni Doyle, affectionately known as Dr. B, as she shares the strategies and insights needed to become a leader who not only adapts to change but thrives in it.

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    1. Why is it important to ask “why” questions?
    2. How can one develop the agility required to adopt elements of transformational leadership?
    3. What are the advantages and disadvantages of having a growth mindset compared to a fixed mindset?
    4. How can mindfulness and resilience be cultivated within the workplace?
    5. What are the benefits of incorporating mindful and micro-moments into daily routines?
    6. What role does intellectual horsepower play in effective leadership?
    7. Why is being stakeholder savvy crucial for successful leadership?
    8. How does courageous agility contribute to effective leadership and decision-making?

    “When it comes to retention and leadership, we need to [first] reconnect with who we are as an individual, and then, [seek to better] know your team .”

    Dr. Berni Doyle


      [03:37] From Coast to City: A Nurse’s Journey of Exploration and Leadership

      [06:18] From Nursing to Leadership: Reflections on Patient Care and Empowering Healthcare Leaders

      [10:58] Listening Beyond Understanding: Building Team Connection and Fostering Trust in Healthcare Leadership

      [12:48] The Divergent Leader: Navigating Agility and Transformation in Leadership

      [16:12] The Pitfalls of Leadership: The Dark Side of Non-Divergent Leadership

      [19:34] Dr. Berni’s entry into the LATTOYG Playbook 

      [22:43] Mindful Leadership: Embracing Micro-Moments for Resilience and Clarity

      [29:49] Signature Segment:  Dr. Berni’s LATTOYG Tactics of Choice

      [35:08] Leadership Excellence Personified: The Unparalleled Influence of Jean Porter

      [38:32] Signature Segment: Karan’s Take


      With over two decades of experience in nursing and healthcare administration, Dr. Berni brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to the table. Her passion for leadership development, growth mindset, and stress management has led her to create educational courses, provide group coaching, and deliver inspiring motivational speeches.

      Dr. Berni’s focus extends beyond technical skills; she emphasizes essential soft skills, leadership agility, and building endurance. Through her work, she empowers healthcare professionals to become the leaders they need, enabling them to navigate the challenges of their roles with confidence and resilience. Recognizing the importance of engaged staff and improved patient outcomes, Dr. Berni is committed to helping healthcare organizations enhance staff engagement and elevate the quality of care. She firmly believes in cultivating leaders of now who will shape the future of healthcare.





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      Episode Sponsor

      This podcast episode is sponsored by Shockingly Different Leadership, the leader in on-demand People, Talent Development & Organizational Effectiveness professional services, all designed to up-level leader capability and optimize workforces to do their best work.

      Click the plus button on the tab to access the written transcript:

      Episode 36 | Why Becoming a Divergent Leader is a Must with Dr. Berni Doyle

      Dr. Berni Doyle  00:00

      The Divergent leader has the ability to be agile enough to take pieces, transformational leadership, or authentic leadership or servant leadership, whatever those particular leadership dynamics are, and take those constructs and apply them to the situation that they’re in.


      Voiceover  00:18

      Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.


      Karan Rhodes  00:55

      Hey there superstars, this is Karan and welcome to today’s episode. You’ve heard the likes of authentic leadership or situational leadership or servant leadership, right? Well, our guest on today’s episode makes an extremely strong case for building your skill set in divergent leadership. So if you’re curious about what divergent leadership truly is, and when it’s the most effective, then you are truly in for a treat. Because our guest today is Dr. Berni Doyle is the founder and CEO of Alchemy Solutions. She’s a healthcare leader with over two decades of experience in nursing and healthcare administration. And she’s extremely passionate about leadership development, growth, mindset and stress management. By teaching about divergent leadership, Dr. Berni is committed to helping health care organizations enhance their staff engagement, improve patient outcomes, and build leaders of now to become leaders of the future. And what’s so cool is that her tips apply to every company industry, no matter how large or small. So be sure to stay tuned for just two minutes after the episode to listen to my closing segment called Karan’s take inquiry, share a tip on how to use insights from today’s episode to further sharpen your leadership acumen. And now, enjoy the show. Hey, there, superstars, this is Karan and welcome to another episode of the Lead at the Top of Your Game podcast. I am super happy to have actually a leader in the healthcare industry. And as you all know, that is such a critical industry that is near and dear to all of us. But we’re very pleased to have on today’s show Dr. Berni Doyle, founder and CEO of alchemy solutions. She is a healthcare leader. And she does primarily focus but heavily focused on leaders like nurses and other health care staff. But her practice actually is opened up to all individuals in all industries, because leadership is leadership no matter what industry that you work in, as we all know. So welcome to the show, Dr. Berni.


      Dr. Berni Doyle  03:19

      Hi, thank you for having me. I’m very excited to be here.


      Karan Rhodes  03:23

      We are so happy to have you. Well, before we dive, dig deep into a lot of this great information that you have for us for as much as you feel comfortable. Would you please share a little bit about your personal background?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  03:37

      Sure. So I’m currently living in Chicago, Illinois. I just moved here back in August so my daughter could start school she’s just starting high school. But before that we lived by the ocean. So we lived in Florida, maybe 1000 feet from the ocean. I lived in Asheville, North Carolina. So I got to see what it was like to live in the mountains. I lived in suburbia. And now I wanted to see what it was like to live in a city. So here I am. People asked me what brought you here and I’m like the city. I wanted to see what it was like because the more exposure you get to different things, there’s different perspectives you gather. So I just like moving around. So my background professionally is I’m a nurse by background. I’ve been a nurse for over 25 years. And my clinical background is ICU trauma surgical services, and also emergency department. So I have a lot of the adrenaline junkie when I was younger aspect of it in my clinical background. But from that I really blossomed out into more leadership administrative type roles and the last in organization role that I had, I was a director of clinical informatics for a large organization in Pennsylvania. And with that, I saw the opportunities for people to really hone in on some of those leadership skills and making their teams was dynamic. So I took that knowledge and I decided I’m going to share with people some of the things that I wish I would have known, or helped develop people into those leaders that I wish I would have had throughout my year. So that’s what I’m doing here.


      Karan Rhodes  05:14

      Wow, that’s amazing. And I know just a little enough to be dangerous. My best friend is a pediatric oncology nurse. She’s in San Francisco, but we talk all the time about, you know, our jobs and what we’re doing what we’re engaged in. And I could just tell you, from a lay person’s perspective, you know, nurses are, are really pushed to the brink. I mean, they have been for quite a while, even before the pandemic, but they especially were during the pandemic, and now they’re just trying to come to terms on whether they want to stay in the industry or not, for a lot of them, some have made decisions one way or the other. But leadership she talks about is so important for those that are in the healthcare profession. And so can you share a little bit about what you saw during your career as a nurse? And then what you’re seeing now as you’re teaching and coaching individuals to become stronger leaders in health care?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  06:18

      Yeah, sure. So when I was first working bedside, and taking care of my patients, that is all I wanted to do, I didn’t want to have anything to do with leadership. That was not in my cards at all. At least that’s what I thought. Universe finds a way of pushing you towards things that you think that you don’t want, and then realize you like, oh, actually, this is this is where I need to be. So I was really, I don’t want to say I was a rebel, but I guess I was a rebel. When leadership said, blah, blah, blah, I’d be like, Well, why? And that wasn’t always well received. Now fast forward, you know, 25 plus years? I think, why and the what if are the biggest questions that we can ask. Because that drives momentum that drives the possibilities? Were when I was younger, I might as I become more quiet in that I was like, okay, so this isn’t well received. I just want to keep doing what I’m doing. But what I realized was those why questions actually highlighted me in the eyes of other of leadership, and then that’s how I got propelled into that leadership direction. So yeah, when I was younger, and you know, with with the way that leadership was rolling out, we were very much…I’d love to talk about health care specifically, and my perspective of it. We’re very much not that nurses aren’t now but it was very much overarching ly care focused, meaning there wasn’t a business finance verbiage, it was really embedded like it is now. Whereas now, if you hear a lot like your business unit, or you’re an owner, you know, as like a business owner, blah, blah, blah, or in the meetings, they I love a metric. I love some data. But I also, I also feel that there needs to be more reconnection with that purpose. And the understanding that we are here for people not necessarily just about the finance or the the metrics or, like how much we can push something. I was actually I was in a conversation the other day when they were talking about trends and leadership. And somebody brought up a specific thing talking about retention, and being able to…what companies do it right, what companies are really good at retaining their employees. And someone brought up the topic of health care, health care doesn’t really go and I said, “What?”


      Karan Rhodes  08:43

      Did a doubletake, right?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  08:46

      And then somebody else had chimed in saying, Yeah, I realized, you know, I really, you know, people in health care where you could see them 20 3040 years in the same job. And you really don’t see that now since COVID. And my response to that was, that’s not true. At least from my perspective, it’s not I think that COVID really lit a fire and highlighted opened, you know, it shone a light on all those dark crevices in the room, to where the things that have been bothering nurses at their core, like not enough staff, not enough time. I didn’t go to the bathroom today. And it’s 16 hours later, I didn’t have lunch, and it’s the I’m going go into like almost my third shift. Like those things have been compounding over the years way before COVID and COVID, because we didn’t know what was going on. When you don’t know what’s going on, people start getting fearful. And that fear then just culminated into Yeah, this isn’t for me. So I think when it comes to retention and leadership, now, post COVID Is that really we need to reconnect with who we are as an individual, like I said, Know thyself, you have to know who you are, how you interact, how you respond, and know your team. So When you know your team, you can then use your knowledge of who you are and how you interact with them. Because those connections those personal those personal touches with this is my leader, I trust my leader, I follow my leader needs to be rebuilt, in order to maintain the nurses that we have. And bro, the nurses that are coming in the future, because we need to keep them. There’s a lot of studies, we won’t have enough. So we need to figure out ways to keep them, grow them and have them grow the people that are coming behind them.


      Karan Rhodes  10:35

      Gosh, I love that. I love to pull back the layers of the onion a little bit when you coach your clients or if you teach workshops, is there a suggested tool or mechanism or approach that you share with them to better get to know their team? How do they do that? What are what has worked well in the environment you’ve been in?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  10:58

      So they always say or you hear the saying, Listen to understand true, you should listen to understand. But you should also listen beyond the understanding and listen to connect. Meaning that those active listening skills, watching somebody’s body language, hearing the words that they’re saying, and receiving those words in a non bias way, because we all have biases, whether we want to say it out loud or not. But those are just things that are based on things that we might have encountered when we were a kid or you know, things that are familiar to us things that we see all the time. And we frame our reality based on what we’ve encountered. So when you’re hearing somebody else, they’re speaking their truth, from their reality, what they’ve encountered, which we have never seen nor encountered. So to truly know somebody and really connect with them, they need to feel heard and seen. And the way that you do that is listening to what they have to say, not just to understand it, but listen to hear what it is that they’re saying to you, what are they feeling? Because that forms that connection, the trust, and then that helps to build the, you know, the collaboration amongst the team. And it helps with retention, by the way.


      Karan Rhodes  12:12

      Yes, it does. We’re going to add that to our listening skills, because that is exactly a tool that can apply no matter your you know, professional industry. So we definitely want to add there


      Dr. Berni Doyle  12:28

      And even your day to day life.


      Karan Rhodes  12:30

      And yeah, your day to day life. Exactly. And everything that you do. So tell me a little bit more about what it means to be a divergent leader. That is a thing you’re very passionate about. But I’d love to hear it from your mouth, your perspective.


      Dr. Berni Doyle  12:48

      Okay. So um, we hear a lot of discussions about transformational leadership or servant leadership or authentic leadership. In my mind, a leader needs to be able to leave a kind of like what I alluded to before, based on the situation, who they’re with what’s happening, understanding what’s going on around them, and having a full picture of what what it is that they’re engaging in. So to do that, there is no, really there’s no right or wrong. The Divergent leader has the ability to be agile enough to take pieces of transformational leadership, or authentic leadership or servant leadership, whatever those particular leadership dynamics are, and take those constructs and apply them to the situation that they’re in. So being able, again, know thyself, and how you interact and how your team interacts, pulling those pieces to best serve, whatever the goal or trajectory that you’re trying to go into. The Divergent leader is agile enough to be able to switch depending on what they need. An example would be, let’s say you have somebody whose skills are amazing. They’re like, they can write reports for you, you’re like, Oh, my goodness, you know, this is the best, but they are not the best communicator. So divergent leader knows that they have to work with that person to work on their communication piece, if they’re gonna grow or go further in their own career, right? They have to be able to grow those aspects of it. So a divergent leader knows that I have to communicate to this person in this way to grow them in this direction. Or let’s say when you have the authoritarian leader style, like a lot of people that goes don’t do that. That’s not the best way to do that because people Baba Baba, baba bah. But sometimes you need to be the authority, you need to be the one that says, This is what we’re doing. Because let’s say a disaster crisis management, when you have something that happens, whatever that that something might be, and you have a bunch of people trying to talk to each other, but like who has the best idea? That is not the time to do it, right. The Divergent leader knows how to switch it to become that author. You know, the authority in that situation. Say this is what we’re doing. They can give the why later. But in that moment, they have to be the one that says, This is what we’re doing. Okay? And so that people have that trust in them to push whatever that is forward. Whereas other times, we want to be collaborators. We want to be co creators with our with our team, again, depending on the situation that we’re in. So a divergent leader is somebody who is beyond the transformational leadership, they’re transmuting, they were like completely something new. They’re not, they’re not just you’re trying to do these little changes here. And there, they are making something that everybody is involved, they’re agile, they’re speaking, and they’re co creating to make an environment that people like to work in, that people look forward to working with, because they feel heard and seen, and they’re valued. And the divergent leader is the like the icing on the cake, they’re that person that knows all the ingredients in that cake. And what that cake shape is, they are the pinnacle of leader in my mind.


      Karan Rhodes  15:55

      I love that that is such a vivid description, and I’ll asked you to flip it for us. So what happens when someone is not a great divergent leader? What is the dark side that can happen when they don’t have that perspective?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  16:12

      So when a leader has the a lot of people like to call it like a closed or fixed mindset, that this is, it’s my way, or the highway or whatever that fixed mindset might be. There are cons to to those leadership styles. But actually, I just I was just having a lecture with somebody about the pros and cons of both mindset versus fixed mindset. The same is applicable for divergent leadership, because sometimes a growth mindset is not really growth. Because if you’re always focused on you know, what’s new, what’s happening, you know, trying to go Go, go go go, it actually becomes a con because you tire out your team, because you’re always changing stuff, always fixing things up. Whereas like a fixed mindset might be something that somebody within the team might need, where it makes them feel stable, like the authority figure, somebody who’s new on the team, that we’re you have to guide them step by step by step and tell them what to do, until you can let them free, fly free, my friend, to be free, go to go do your thing, this is what I need you to do. And then they can have that autonomy, but they need to know that the ground ropes and expectations, which is key expectations are always key. So if a person who finds that they want to lead in a certain way, like if they’re always talking and never listening, they are killing the creativity within their team. They’re not getting new perspectives. I used to get asked all the time, why do you let so and so, you know, be part of this team? They’re always you know, so negative blah, blah, blah, blah? Well, there’s a few reasons. One, that negative person that’s on the team will highlight things that I might not have seen. Yes, right. Yep. Yeah, we might get tired of hearing the negativity. But we need to know that because how are we supposed to grow whatever it is that we’re trying to implement? If we don’t see what are the wrenches might be, you know, what, what’s gonna throw a cog in the machine that we didn’t see, negative person is probably going to see that, or we didn’t think about it, they’re going to point it out. The other reason that I love doing that is because once that negative person knows that people actually paying attention, they then become your biggest advocate. So let’s say you’re implementing some electronic documentation. And you have the person who’s like, yeah, they always put the changes in APA, blah, blah, blah. You bring them in on these discussions, and you let them have a voice, they point out things that you might not have considered. And then they go back and tell their friends, like, Hey, I was in on this, blah, blah, blah, and they actually hurt me. So then they become an advocate for what it is that you’re trying to do or say. So that negative person then becomes your positive person, the person who’s most engaged within something that you thought, hey, they’re not going to want to do this. They are because now they’re invested in what it is that we’re doing.


      Karan Rhodes  19:02

      And once you get them invested, you can combine that with the rest of the team and boy you’re cooking with, as we say, in the south cooking with Grace at that point in time. Yeah. I love it. So, Berni, what I next want to talk about is, let me turn it on you a little bit. So you have had such deep experience? Uh, what does it take for you to lead at the top of your own game?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  19:34

      Every day. Every day you have to take account for am I always in a positive mood? No. But I know that about myself.


      Karan Rhodes  19:45

       That’s a surprise because you have such a great personality.


      Dr. Berni Doyle  19:49

      Thank you. Yeah. So you have to again it goes back to knowing yourself. So I know that these are the things that set me off. So if that’s something that set me sets me off, it makes me angry. We are, you know, sad or whatever that might be, depending on the situation, I might avoid it. But at the same token, you can’t always avoid things that just aren’t, you know, pleasant, you just can’t because life happens and everything happens in a cycle. So you’re gonna have days when you’re like, Yeah, I rock in this world. And other days, you’re like, I think the world is on my back. So for me is just knowing and being aware of, okay, this is how I’m feeling a self check, really, I self check myself and say, Okay, this is where I’m at mentally, this is how I’m feeling. And this is where I need to be. So being able to flip my own mindset to get like, for whatever it is that I’m doing, I need to be able to acknowledge that I’m here, not pretend I’m not. Because if you’re always walking around, like, yeah, everything’s great. I have rainbows and unicorns. That’s not true. You’re not being authentic. You’re just you’re just not burned out. Remember, we were talking earlier about the growth and the fixed and you know, always being positive is not a good thing. Because you have to acknowledge that there are some things that just aren’t good, but being authentic and truthful and transparent. That is very helpful. Like, do I have to tell everybody what I ate for dinner? No, no, I don’t. But I do have to be able to say, Okay, this is what’s happening within our team. This is why this is happening. Now, let’s figure it out. It’s not the best, but you can change it into an opportunity. So again, for me, is knowing myself and acknowledging that and allowing myself to be mentally, like mentally regather myself to move forward to towards the situation, or whatever it is that I’m dealing with at the time.


      Karan Rhodes  21:41

      I love that. And then what I’d love our listeners to remember is sometimes you got to give yourself air cover to check in with yourself mentally, and do what it takes to either get yourself back on track or maybe to re energize yourself, it might be the decision that you need to take a couple hours off that day, that afternoon to kind of rest and regroup and come back in the morning. If you find yourself dragging, if you can, you know not all times we’re in positions where we can do that. But I think the takeaway definitely is to check in with yourself and make the needed adjustments or course corrections as needed, right?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  22:20

      Yes, yeah. And divergent leader knows to do that, right? Because they’re agile, understand that, hey, this isn’t where I need to be. This is where I need to get to. How do I do that? Well, I’ve changed my mindset, I have to change my location, or I have to whatever that might be, you have to be aware that this is what is happening, and what do I need to do to do it? Do you mind if I share a story?


      Karan Rhodes  22:41

      Please, we love you, too.


      Dr. Berni Doyle  22:43

      Thank you. So my, one of the organizations I worked for they were talking, they always talked about mindfulness, and you know, resilience, and I was like, I’m mindful, I’m resilient. I’ve got this, I, you know, I’ve done this, this and this, I’m like, I got this until I didn’t have it. And I remember we have what’s called the downtime. So that means that the computers aren’t available for clinical people to use during that particular time, which a lot of the platforms that that happens, where they’re doing upgrades, they’re getting better at it, where you don’t have to actually be off the computer. But this particular day, it was supposed to be an upgrade, and it was gonna take you know, X amount of hours, those X amount of hours turned into 16 hours. Oh my god, you my clinical background, I worked in the emergency department. I know how fast paced it is, I know it’s life and death, you don’t know who’s coming in through those front doors, you need to be able to have the tools that you use during work, specifically the computer to communicate, get information from put information into and direct the care for that patient. It’s essential. So I know that the computers are down, I take it personally, even though I’m not the one who brought the but I’m the one I’m the face for what’s going on. So I had somebody that particular time during the 16 hours, call me from the emergency department and tell me that it was my fault that they were backed up. And as you know, the ers in general, you’re going to have a backup. Well, not everybody but most ers have a backup where people waiting in the waiting room, people waiting to be admitted with a call bottlenecking. So from my background as an emergency room nurse, knowing the importance of the computer and the number of people that come through that are dependent on you, as a nurse to provide them the care that they need. I started crying. I was just started sobbing. And I emailed the VP of the hospital to say I thank you so much for this opportunity. I was letting go. You’re resigning? I was resigning in that moment because it was for that nurse to have the computers and there was nothing I could do about it. So he calls me and he’s like yeah, no You’re not going anywhere. You’re staying. Nice letter. But no. And it was in that moment that I realized when I talk when they talk about mindfulness and resilience, I didn’t understand what it was, I truly didn’t understand what it was. And it was the next day that I was like, Okay, I need to figure this out. Because when I thought I had it, I didn’t when I needed it the most. That’s what happens. So with that, I also, I, the reason I bring that up is because when you’re talking about being mindful of being able to reflect on who you are, somebody said one time, the music is beautiful, during the points where the notes are being made. That’s the silence between the notes that makes the music beautiful. And when I heard that, I thought, That’s exactly it. When you are thinking or creating or just taking a moment for yourself, you need the silence and to get to silence you need to calm chaos, right? So how can we do that? Can we sit in our offices and meditate for an hour? No. Can we go do yoga in the middle of it? Well, depending on what you are doing, maybe, maybe you can, or most of us can’t. So I do what’s called mindful moments. Or micro moments where like, like, with my water, when I need just a second, I’ll take a breath in, swallow slowly, because I’m slowing myself down. I’m decreasing my vagal nerve response, my parasympathetic, I’m calming it down. So I take a breath, swallow, breathe out, swallow, take a breath, swallow, breathe out, swallow. That gives you it just takes a couple of seconds. But it’s enough time for you to recenter re gather and not be scattered all over the place. The other thing that you could do is just that just mindful breathing. I like the water and the breathing because you’re hydrating and getting extra oxygen. But just mindful breathing, putting your hand on your chest. And just taking a moment, take some slow breaths in holding your breath. blowing it out, hold, inhale, hold, breathe out, hold that way of breathing resets your mind and stabilizes you so that you have the clarity that you need to make a decision or to hear what’s being said to be present. I’d love to see people doing that before a meeting, like just take a moment and everybody just breathe, breathe together. Because imagine the collaboration is going to happen because everybody’s in sync with their breath, right? I don’t want to get too too out there. But…


      Karan Rhodes  27:37

      no, I love this.


      Dr. Berni Doyle  27:39

      Just taking that moment and just connecting with yourself. You don’t have to have minutes throughout the day, I’ve seen where people say I schedule it. I have this one person say I schedule an hour and a half. We’re sure half an hour and a half on your day.


      Karan Rhodes  27:53

      I know I need to learn that trick that free of an hour and a half.


      Dr. Berni Doyle  27:57

      I know! But you can make a couple of minutes you can make a couple of seconds just to re gather and get refocused. And that’s the lesson that I really learned from boo hooing and leaving a position that I absolutely loved. I had to teach myself how to take those moments. And it’s those micro moments those you know, moments of Zen and whatever you want to call it just for yourself so that you can get refocused on on the task at hand.


      Karan Rhodes  28:22

      I love that. And I do something similar right before I’m going to speak, they always talk about mindful breathing and centering yourself before you’re going out on stage. I’m one of those people who’s not afraid of public speaking. But you wouldn’t be natural if you didn’t have a few anticipation butterflies in your stomach. So I do that breathing just to center myself so that I tried to bring out my best self when when I do speak. So I love and and totally endorse that. So I hope your listeners did too. And those of you who end up watching our YouTube channel, you will see me having done that while Dr. Berni was sharing with us. And I hope you do that as well. So I can’t let you out of here that Berni until I let you give perspective on the leadership tactics, talking about making things real and your day to day lives. As you know, the book lead at the top of your game and I talk about some of the leadership tactics of some of the world’s most high performing leaders. And I always ask my guess which one stands out to them and you are so kind enough to say there were three that stood out for us I want to give you this space and grace to to share your thoughts on that. So the first one you mentioned, was intellectual horsepower. So why did that mean a lot to you what stood out for you about that tactic?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  29:49

      So intellectual horsepower to be speaks to leaders always learning leaders always learn so that they can share. So if you are reading something you should be reading, you should be listening, you should be listening to podcasts you should be listening to, you know, even if you know on YouTube watching stuff that will help you grow. It doesn’t necessarily have to be within whatever your whatever your silo might be like for healthcare stuff, I don’t always listen to health care leadership, I listen to stuff about you know, from the military, I pull a lot of stuff from there different tactics that you can use. The reason is that you want to take those and be able to implement them. So I kind of alluded to that I used to say knowledge is power. Well, the power happens when you actually do it. So if the power is in action, so then you might have the knowledge, but if you don’t do anything with it, what good is it, it’s just taking up more mindspace or it goes away, you lose it, right? So you know, intellectual horsepower is being able to take that information that that you’ve learned and implement it and move it forward and help somebody else. Because you are always a leader should always be looking to push move forward, and bring those with the people behind them. Leaders should be making more leaders, you know?


      Karan Rhodes  31:03

      Thanks you!


      Dr. Berni Doyle  31:04



      Karan Rhodes  31:06

      Okay. Audience members, did you hear that leaders should always be helping to make other leaders? That is the purpose of via? Absolutely. So, very the second tactic that resonated with you was stakeholder savvy, you want to share a little bit about stakeholder savvy?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  31:24

      Yes. So kind of along the lines of that Emergent Leader, you have to be able to situational awareness, your emotional intelligence, how do you regulate your emotions, and being aware of self being aware of others that you’re with. So being able to be savvy is being able to pull different things from different areas of your mind to understand that this is how I need to be within this particular situation, or during this particular problem. So a divergent leader has to be savvy enough to pull whatever tools that they’ve learned during you know, during the intellectual horsepower, always learning, you have to be able to pull and use that information and put it into action. But you have to be savvy enough one, to be aware of it. Be aware of yourself, be aware of your surroundings and be aware of the people that you’re impacting. So you have you have to do that that makes agility. So the more flow and agile you are, the better you’re grounded, you will be and your team will be.


      Karan Rhodes  32:22

      And that brings us to the last one, you kind of hinted at it. But the last one was courageous agility, which is, you know, all about having the courage to do the right thing and stand up for what you believe in. And why is that important as a leader?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  32:35

      So a lot of times when we were kind of talking about earlier, if you are one leadership style and not wanting to be another one, you have to be able to fluctuate in between, depending on what the situation with the situation is, what the what’s happening around you, you have to be agile during that, but you also have to be courageous enough to know that, okay, this might not be a skill that I’m comfortable doing. But I’m going to do it because I tried it. I learned it. I’m trying it. And I’m going to evaluate it. Did that work? If it worked? Hey, I’m putting that in my toolbox and keeping that for later. Did it not work? Okay, let me put this over here. Maybe it wasn’t for this situation? Don’t get rid of it. Because I can’t tell you how many times I heard well, we tried that that didn’t work. Well. Yeah, but did you try to in this situation, so you always have to have that you know, those folder files with things that you might have tried, it didn’t work, but also that you’re trying something new experimenting, getting curious, asking questions, you have to be courageous to do that, because so many people want to fit in. And there’s nothing wrong with fitting in, right. But you also have to be able to go against that grain, kind of book that status quo. And to do that you have to be courageous enough to be willing to put yourself out there setting out those risks, knowing that the benefits, you take the risks, knowing that the benefits might not always be in your favor. But when they do, oh boy, are they in your favor, because you’ve opened potentials and possibilities that might not have been seen, because you are open and a risk taker willing to ask those questions that other people might not, might not ask an agile enough to then take the information that you get implemented and make that change that needs to happen.


      Karan Rhodes  34:16

      Golden nuggets, I usually ask for only one but I had to let you talk about all three because that was such a wonderful way to position all three of them of why they are all you know extremely important if you’re trying to, you know be the best leader you can be. And then the last question I have for you, I would love to round out our conversation by allowing you to give credit or kudos to a leader that you love. And so what we ask is that if there think about a person, or a business or company or brand that has earned the right of your admiration, I would love for you to share or what that would be. So who in your opinion, has done a great job of being a leader in their business or industry?


      Dr. Berni Doyle  35:08

      So for me, that would be Jean Porter. Jean Porter was a nursing supervisor that became my preceptor when I first started in the trauma, ICU. And everyone. Well, not everybody, but a lot of people are intimidated by her because she was super smart. Like when we talk about always reading and learning is an encyclopedia like, where do you even keep this knowledge? And super smart, willing to share, willing to let you fail or fall forward? I didn’t realize because a lot of times people will think that failing is a bad thing. You’re not failing. You just learn something. Remember, we’re talking about if you take something you try to experiment with it and it didn’t work, okay. Well, it didn’t work out. That’s not a failure. That’s just you learned, okay, that didn’t work in that situation. Jean was amazing at that. And growing growth like she was her heart is in supporting for me, like I would not be the person or leader that I am now, if Jean didn’t realize I’m so I don’t want to get I didn’t realize this arc in me that I didn’t know I had. But she was able to grow that spark and get me to where I was like, Okay, well, tell me more. Tell me more. Tell me more. Show me more. Let me learn more. And she was always like, Oh, you want more? Here’s some more.


      Karan Rhodes  36:32

      I got more


      Dr. Berni Doyle  36:33

      More for  you. Oh, you want it? Would you just want to have me like move up to like different positions. And I thought I’m not ready for this. She’s like, Yes, you are.


      Karan Rhodes  36:41

      Yes you are!


      Dr. Berni Doyle  36:43

      So I love Jean.


      Karan Rhodes  36:46

      Wonderful. And what was her last time again? Jean.


      Dr. Berni Doyle  36:49

      Porter. Jean Porter


      Karan Rhodes  36:50

      Porter? Okay, so we want to give huge kudos to Jean Porter, for leading at the top of her game and being an inspirational leader for both you and all probably that she came in contact with. So kudos to you is Miss Jean. All right. Well, Dr. Berni, I want to thank you so much for the gift of your time of being on the podcast. There were so many nuggets, I was taking notes as we were talking. Definitely we’ll be including those in the show notes. But thank you so much for everything that you have shared and done. And we really appreciate your time for being on the podcast today.


      Dr. Berni Doyle  37:32

      Thank you. It’s a pleasure, a lot of fun. Thank you.


      Karan Rhodes  37:34

      And listeners, be sure to check out our show notes. There’ll be information on how to reach out to Dr. Berni Doyle should you feel you should and you should I’m gonna tell you right now go ahead and check out she and her website and her practice they have so much to offer. And please share this information about the podcast with at least one friend because we can use the listeners and they can use a little bit of information on how they too can leave at the top of their game. Take care and see you next week. Well, I hope you enjoyed our conversation today with Dr. Berni Doyle, founder and CEO of Alchemy Solutions, links to her bio her entry into our leadership playbook. And additional resources can be found both in the show notes on your favorite podcast platform of choice, or on the web at And now for Karan’s take on today’s topic of divergent leadership in divergent leadership is extremely exciting, because it’s all about no calls for creative brainstorming and leadership around the problem. Now, it’s direct opposite is called convergent leadership, which considers other dependencies to come to a reasonable course of action. Now while both forms are important, divergent leadership brings innovation to organizations a divergent leader is someone who is able to really perceive at a high level what is actually happening in the moment. And then with intellectual and emotional dexterity, they can detect patterns and move people or initiatives in the direction. Instead of utilizing one approach for leaning. They can rely on multi divisional approaches and capabilities. And I really love how exciting divergent leadership. So I want to emphasize my case that I think we need more divergent leaders in organizations. leaders today are faced with unprecedented challenges such as the speed of change technological, the interconnectedness of the world today, and the diversity of workforce. However, we There is an art to managing through the chaos and leadership not being left to navigate. So if you or your organization is interested in increasing the savvy of your employees to better leader, then please check out our signature programs elite at the Lead at the Top of Your Game on our website at It’s right there in the navigation. We’d love to chat more about what this could look like. And your says, as you know, I will leave my one ask all of you listeners to subscribeand like and review the podcast and to share your because that will help us extend and help others such as yourself to lead at the top of your game. Thanks so much for the gift of you listening and see you next week. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.

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