Episode 113 | How Skeptics and Crazy Ideas Drive Great Leadership with Joe Davis

Joe Davis  00:00

If you’re really going to get something done, you know, engage the skeptics. Uncover the nose and, you know, you think about trying to drive change, and somebody says, Oh, no, that won’t work. And everyone thinks they’re the blockers. Actually, most of the time, they’re not blockers. They know something you don’t know about what it’s going to take to do it, or it’s something you’re missing.

Voiceover  00:05

Welcome to the “Lead at the Top of Your Game” podcast, where we equip you to more effectively lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. Each week, we help you sharpen your leadership acumen by cracking open the playbooks of dynamic leaders who are doing big things in their professional endeavors. And now, your host, leadership tactics, and organizational development expert, Karan Ferrell-Rhodes.

Karan Rhodes  00:36

Hello, my superstars. This is Karan, and welcome to another episode of the lead at the top of your game podcast. We have a tremendous guest on the show today that I am super excited to talk about some of the lessons learned over his career, and he’s had a very lengthy career, as you will learn in just a moment. So I’m sure there’s a ton of nuggets that we need to make sure that we better understand. But we’re pleased to welcome on the show today Joe Davis. And Joe is a managing director and senior partner at the Boston Consulting Group, one of the most renowned management consulting firms across the globe. Now Joe has been with VCG over 35 years. I believe it’s closer to 37 he co founded their Washington DC office, and you know, there’s a lot of work in DC for them to do, as well as starting vcgs North America public sector business. In addition, Joe is the author of a book called The generous leader, where he shares numerous stories about the power of leaders who are intentionally human centric, and just in my pre conversations with Joe, I mean, I can just imagine, you know, 50 million people at his feed listening to his stories because they are so engaging and always with the point that he’s Trying to bring on home. So I just know this episode is going to be fantastic. So welcome to the podcast, Joe,

Joe Davis  02:06

Thank you. Karan, thank you for that very wonderful and kind introduction. That was very nice.

Karan Rhodes  02:12

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, you know, I have a lot of questions and discussions I love to have with you, and I know we’re on limited time, but before we go there, you know, we always love to learn a little bit more about our guests on a personal level. So for just as much as you feel comfortable, would you mind sharing and giving us just a sneak peek of your life outside of work?

Joe Davis  02:34

Outside of work? Okay, well, I first have to say today is my birthday.

Karan Rhodes  02:40

Happy Birthday, Joe!

Joe Davis  02:41

This will probably be a recorded show and will air at a different time.

Karan Rhodes  02:43

That’s ok!

Joe Davis  02:44

You know, I always start here. I’ve been married 43 years. I have four children and eight grandchildren and counting, and they are without question. The absolute joy of my life consumes and I’m actually, after 37 years, you were right, leaving BCG and my children clearly and grandchildren play a big part the other things outside of work. I’ve always been a runner. I love to run. I almost, you know everyone you say work, but everyone should have their de stressors without question. My de stressor is, is running. I also maybe one little interesting. Done the silent meditation retreats, the 10 day Vipassana. I’ve done three of them, which are

Karan Rhodes  03:21

Really? And you survive them? I think I would just crash!

Joe Davis  03:25

They’re intense, but they’re wonderful. And I came home with the first one. My wife said, if this was going to be like you can go every year. And I also said, I might go to India and do a 30 day one, she goes, No, because you might not come home.

Karan Rhodes  03:37

Oh…that’s right! You got to keep a happy home. Now, Joe, you know that?

Joe Davis  03:41

Well, I might just stay there. But anyway. There you go.

Karan Rhodes  03:45

Well, congratulations on just the beautiful family and making the decision to start your next chapter in life too, after 37 years at BCG, even if it’s just enjoying your family. But I’m sure a person like you’re gonna get a little bit antsy and probably do lots of things,

Joe Davis  04:03

oh, I will, I will I will keep myself productively busy I hope.

Karan Rhodes  04:08

You will, I’m sure! Well, thank you so much for that sneak peek, Joe. We really appreciate it. And you know, I mean, I’d love to kind of switch gears and have you start a little bit about because you’ve been with BCG almost, I won’t say your entire professional life, but a lot of it. But can you share a little bit about your work there, and maybe a couple of lessons learned you’ve learned in the consulting business, because it has really evolved over the years, even me and my employers that I work with were probably primary clients of VCG overall. But can you give our listeners sneak peek of what it’s like to work there and what things you work on?

Joe Davis  04:53

Okay, well, it’s consulting. So, you know, we’ve worked with large fortune 500 type companies on, you know. Tough issues that they want to solve. The job has evolved. I started BCG when we were an old fashioned strategy consulting firm, you know, like the eight week studies, and we left the deck behind preservation. That’s changed now massively. Now we try to stay with our clients and get the work done and help implement, you know, and really be more deeply involved, which changed, therefore what we had to do, because it’s one thing to come up with great insights. Yeah, said you’ve been in Microsoft. It’s another thing to then do those things inside an organization with with people. And, you know, one lesson I could think of, like often tell I mean, I learned it over the years, until work for me, over the years, you really want to make sure you’re listening to folks and probably talk about that, but you really want to engage if you’re really going to get something done, you know, engage the skeptics. Uncover the nose and, you know, you think about trying to drive change, and somebody says, Oh, no, that won’t work. And everyone thinks they’re the blockers. Actually, most of the time, they’re not blockers. They know something you don’t know about what it’s going to take to do it, or it’s something you’re missing. And so I actually say, Go find the people that think your idea is crazy and understand why, and then either make your idea better, or you know, or convince them why it’s okay. But usually, usually they know something you don’t you need to know, which I think is one very big lesson, even in life, you know, understanding where someone else is coming from. Just think how things would be different if we all tried to do that a little bit more

Karan Rhodes  06:28

Absolutely, Boy, wouldn’t things be a whole lot easier if we all were intentional about that. about

Joe Davis  06:35

At least try. You don’t have to agree.

Karan Rhodes  06:39

Well, I know that you also the author of the book, The generous leader. And you know, we go as deep as we can about tips and advice on leadership. And so first of all, I’d love for you to share the audience a little bit more about what drove you to write the book, and maybe a couple of tips or insights that you wouldn’t mind sharing with the listeners.  Yep,

Joe Davis  06:58

Yep, okay, well, I mean, I will make sure this is not too long. I mean, as I finished leading, I led BCG North America, my last major role, and led it through COVID, which, as we all know, was quite an interesting time for all of us, but for leaders, too. And a lot of people said, you ought to write about your leadership style, what you learned during COVID. That was funny. I started that book and shared it with one of the publishers, and they said they were like this. They saidnobody by time we get a book out, which takes a couple of years. As you know, no one will want to read about COVID. So I shifted the book to be more about, you know, leadership. Interviewed a bunch of other leaders in a much longer frame. So people suggest that I write it. But I, you know, there are some other reasons I thought, not bad to do something prior to retirement. That may be useful post retirement, but the real thing I thought is, I want to throw my voice out there on, as you said, human centric, or head heart, and you know, on the fact that I think a leader, you know, has to be a good business person, has to be a good manager. But the more you can bring your heart and your humanity into your leadership, the more people are really going to be inspired and motivated, and the more obviously you get done, right? A lot of people, right? But, you know, Brene Brown has written a lot of books, you know, so many famous people, but a friend of mine said, Joe, if you move eight people, it’s worth the effort. And I hope I move more than eight. I thought, Okay, I’m gonna

Karan Rhodes  08:16

You need a bigger legacy than that. Joe, you got two in college.

Joe Davis  08:19

It’s interesting because you can get intimidated by people who write books are very famous and sell millions of copies,

Karan Rhodes  08:26

Yeah,

Joe Davis  08:26

And not put your voice out there. And I thought, Okay, I’ll talk to a different set of people than these other people did, and I’ll try to move them.

Karan Rhodes  08:33

Yes, that is awesome. And

Joe Davis  08:36

I didn’t go into insights. I’ll let you Sorry.

Karan Rhodes  08:40

No, there’s a ton I could ask, definitely, but, you know, I was reading up on your bio in some of the things that you, you know, love to think about, and you know, you always share that being a truly great leader is all about outcomes, but you still have to, you know, really understand and be sensitive to people and their values and thoughts and beliefs to make that connection and to increase the level of trust so that you do get the best out of them, and hopefully, ultimately get, you know, some fantastic outcomes. But a lot of you know people say that, but I’ve seen a lot of companies where that culture does not live that out. There’s still truly outcome driven. And in your experience, how do you best balance getting, if your leader, motivating your team, and getting them to a great outcome, while also being sensitive about the journey along the way.

Joe Davis  09:43

Yeah? Okay, no, you know, and where you started is right, because you can be someone that leads with your heart, your humanity, but if you don’t get outcomes, you don’t stay in the job that is just a fact.

Karan Rhodes  09:53

Nope. That’s, then you’re out.

Joe Davis  09:55

You know, and sometimes I’ve been accused, well, no, you’re just talking about the soft stuff, yeah, but I’m still saying you get results.  And actually what I believe, you know, I think I might like a tagline, but I define a generous leader as one who gives of themselves freely, without expectation of direct personal gain, so that others can grow and develop and thrive at their full potential. And of course, as you just said, if you actually really get your people to thrive at their full potential. You do gain too. If that’s your intention, it gets to be a little bit, you know, a little bit insincere. But I actually believe it’s critical to motivate, inspire people to their best. Now I will say just I’ll take one thing that one of the things I talk about in there is giving, you know, very clear feedback, but really recognizing a person’s strength and what they need to work on. And a quick story. When I was younger, my first job was Procter and Gamble, and I worked I was 25 I had or 26 whatever, three reps that were 40 years old. Now I was scared to death of these guys. What did I know as a kid, you know, and I used to ride with them every two weeks and never give them feedback, because I was just in awe. Finally came time for year end review, and I wrote down all the stuff they should work on according to the PNG manual, and what I saw, and I started, launched into this review with one of these fellows. His name was Rich, about a minute, and he says, or two minutes. He’s Wait a minute, Joe. He actually probably swore you ride with me every two weeks, and you never said any of this stuff. I was just mortified. I just, I don’t remember what I but I got out of it. Worked through it, but then and then, when he left, we finished, my boss said, Never again. Do you dare give feedback, written feedback, year end feedback where they haven’t heard it along the way. You know? I mean, you know, there’s radical candor, Rachel Star. You know, this idea of giving very clear and direct, how do you reconcile that with being with the heart? Well, actually, I want you better. If I really want you to be better, I need to help you get better. And if I’m mush, giving mushy feedback, or doing what I did, they’re not saying anything all year. That’s not helping someone be better. And if I tell you directly, what you know with it has to come from a place of caring. Has to come a place from them wanting to be better. And it has to come with some work, which is, you understand their strengths, that they can leverage to work if you don’t do all that, you know. I mean, you could do pieces, but that package is what makes it work. You can give very clear, direct feedback, one might say the opposite of from the heart

Karan Rhodes  10:01

Right. Right?

Joe Davis  12:22

Actually, from the deepest heart. You know, we all think about our best mentors, or if you had a good mentor, they were usually tough. If they weren’t tough, were they really good? Because they want you to be great.

Karan Rhodes  12:33

That’s right, they’ll push you out of your comfort zone, right?

Joe Davis  12:36

Yea, they’ll push you out. And that’s because they care about you. Otherwise, they’re not your mentor.

Karan Rhodes  12:41

Or they shouldn’t be.

Joe Davis  12:43

you know, and then your point on the culture and organizations, I mean, it’s, it’s just tricky, because it’s not, you know, as somebody reminded me, we start with very young to be tough and blah, blah, blah and all this, and don’t be vulnerable. Um, but I think if someone really sits back and says, Okay, I want my team to be as great as they can be and is not afraid, because a lot of people give mushy feedback just because they’re afraid, they’re scared, and now they’ve hurt, they’ve hurt themselves, and they’ve hurt the person, or they’ve hurt the person, which then hurts them because their person doesn’t know it, you know? So I think it’s all wrong. When someone says, no, no, no, I I gotta be a tough guy and all that, then you lose in the end of the day. And actually, you know, I interviewed a lot of CEOs for my book. None of them, they were clear on they have to drive results. But they really cared about the people, and they knew that, you know, I like to say the Jack Welch days, who was a very good manager, no question. But, you know, was bottom 10% fire neutron Jack, yeah, that model would not work with today’s people.

Karan Rhodes  13:40

Oh, no. It wouldn’t. I don’t think it would. You’d have to couch it differently and apply it differently, but, yeah, I don’t think it would work as it was.

Joe Davis  13:51

No no, you could still be pushing people to be their best, but you’re actually supposed to be helping them to become their best, not just, you know, and Jack, I think I want to go Jack Welch. But I think the other thing I think is different today is, I mean, you know, work and life have blurred. You know that we all know that

Karan Rhodes  14:07

Very much so, yes. Very much so, yes.

Joe Davis  14:07

People, they have no choice but to bring their human self, or want to bring their human self to work, and they expect to see it from you. And then, depending on what industry you’re in, people can change jobs, and the best will change. So, you know, sure, maybe a company can get away with the opposite of what I’m advocating, but I don’t think they hold the best people now,

Karan Rhodes  14:09

No they don’t. They definitely don’t. I would love, and I hope you don’t mind me doing this, but I would love to spotlight one of your many roles at BCG, one of them being the chair of their center for inclusion and equity committees, and being part partner with the CEO, and I know it really impacted your outlook on leadership. You know equity inclusion is such a charged term in this environment, and so I’m just, I’m curious about learning a little bit more about, you know, your role there, and how do you think we can the sentiment and then the importance of inclusion and equity alive in today’s business environment?

Joe Davis  15:15

Yeah, so, I mean, you did point out today it’s not in the business environment. I think it’s the outside environment actually forcing business people they’re not. Most people believe what you and I can tell what you and I believe just by your question and my role. Most people believe that. I mean, we talked to a lot of companies now, and they might have had to change some words, depending on what state they live in, but they haven’t changed their values. Yeah. And I think there’s two things when you say how it’s funny, my son finally read my book, and he called me

Karan Rhodes  15:43

He finally read it?

Joe Davis  15:45

He’s 27 you know now, he said, I finally get it on this racial equity stuff, because I do care very deeply. And he said, it’s not just the right thing to do. It’s actually good for business. If it wasn’t good for business? You can’t make business people do it and let those that really kick and he said, Yes, because I sell this stuff, and I should, I think some my customers are probably black, a lot of that, I should understand where they’re coming from, a little bit. I said, Well, that’s Andrew. Thank you. That’s the point. So I do think you say, how can we there’s those that just believe it’s the right thing to do. Cannot back down. Should not shut up. Should keep pushing. You know, we also have to mind, we also have to know that it’s good for business. I mean, you know, we do a lot of work with government agencies, and they need people. There ain’t enough white males. No offense to you know, they need the whatever you want to call it the rainbow of North America. They understand. We have to figure out how to be inclusive. We have to figure out a higher people. Have to help grow them. And you know, you’ve been is funny thing, because a few years ago, there were studies by PCG, by McKinsey, even by the PE firm. Diverse workforce gets to better answers. Diversity in the board yields better so there’s all now, somehow we’re no one’s talking about that right now. I think, you know, we’ll just have to get through this time. And I think the real weight reason, way to make it not go away is two points, it’s still good for business in whatever fashion it is for your organization, and then something I believe it’s the right thing to do. But that’s not enough. I know that, but I know it’s not enough, you know.

Karan Rhodes  17:23

No, it’s not. And I you know, these things come in cycles. I mean, you’ve probably seen them over the years. You know, one minute it’s a hot topic, and then the next it dies down for X, Y and Z reasons. And I’m very hopeful that it will cycle back around very soon to once again, being a safe topic to talk about, because, like you said, it’s the right thing for the business, it’s the right thing for people. And we are more similar as people than different, and we, many of us, have very similar values. And if we talk about it in a realistic way and connect our stories, it, you know, it just makes sense. So when things generally make sense, it really sometimes comes a pass after a while, a lot of times,

Joe Davis  18:08

Yeah, no, yeah, I it has to rebalance. I mean, as you said, I mean, someone reminded me, when Martin Luther King was killed, there was a lot of energy, and the energy dissipated, you know, something, of course, George Floyd, Now, unfortunately, it’s dissipated and it’s getting attacked, but that’ll that will, I just believe better amount of humans that will balance out. But the thing that’s important is those people that care

Karan Rhodes  18:33

stay the course and re emphasize it.

Joe Davis  18:36

And speaking too, I was recently, and they were just talking about how in a lot of executives and business people are shutting up. That’s not helpful if your values now, I know this is not as easy to do as I say, but if your values haven’t changed, find the way to live and express those values publicly. If you’re in a role that you know you can

Karan Rhodes  18:57

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s also important to meet people where they are as well and connect them, because there’s something, and maybe I’m just a true optimist, but there’s always something or red thread around of our values in general that we can connect to and talk in terms of that, and then expand the conversations as you build more and more trust with people. But you’re right for those in a corporate setting or governmental setting or things that are they’re being true leaders, true visible leaders where their words are really making an impact and different, they’ve got to stand up and be courageous about it. Yeah, yeah, that’s just Karan two cents,

Joe Davis  19:36

No, I agree with you. No, you’d also just said something about understanding where others are coming from, and that goes both ways. You know, I shouldn’t say this, but I’m going to, it’s about me, but I built the North America team. We put a lot of women and people of color in places they have a chance to grow into leadership roles. Someone called me, you know, white male call me, said, Well, Joe, does this mean I get a chance? I said, yeah, yeah. It’s just going to be more balanced. And so when it’s balanced, you have as much a chance as they did, you know. And actually they had, you know, wasn’t, I don’t want to be careful what I say, but yeah, I guess, yeah, you have a chance, but so do all these other people. So I did a podcast once, and a first person Australia is from Australia, drilling me. We he was drilling me on diversity and equity. And he said, well, all you people, here’s what he said, please. All you woke people care about is equal outcomes. That was insightful to me. What are you talking about? We care about equal opportunity. You got to have a chance. You know, like the best ally, I’ve been told, doesn’t they open the door for the person to walk through. The person has to perform. You coach I’m like here, and this is not about equal outcomes. It’s about equal opportunity, deliver those outcomes. If you fail, you fail. You know that’s that’s the deal, that’s life, support them. But telling, I thought, wow, if that’s what you think, No wonder we’re in a different place,

Karan Rhodes  20:55

That’s right, or a whole different place.

Joe Davis  20:58

I don’t believe that either, I believe. Yeah. Anyway, you know equal chance.

Karan Rhodes  21:03

So Joe, if you had to leave our audience with just three main points that you want them to remember out of this podcast. And you could have said it before, or you might be new, but think of three main points or tips or nuggets that you would love for them to remember. What would those three be?

Joe Davis  21:25

Yeah, okay, let’s see. I think I’ll go in this order. First off, I just think it’s essential in life to listen to learn. I’ll say, you know, generous, really listening to what, and not just hear the words you’re saying to me. Karan, but why is she saying this? What’s she thinking? What she mean? And ask if you don’t know, it’s just so critical that we listen to each other. And if you’re a leader, you really have to or a consultant or a business person, you know your coach of a soccer team, you gotta listen to your kids if there’s something wrong. So I think, and that, by that, I mean, where are they coming from? What are they saying? That’s number one. I do think another thing tied to that that I would say, as best you can, try and understand the other person’s lived experience and where their point, what’s their background? You don’t have to go study it knowing you can’t, and don’t pretend you do know it that really. But try that and you know, what is this their perspective? And then the third thing I’d say, which we didn’t talk about much, but you want people to follow you. You have to be your you have to be real or authentic, or whatever you and if you’re perfect, nobody follows a perfect person. At Well,

Karan Rhodes  22:30

I’ve never met a perfect person, but if you find one, let me know.

Joe Davis  22:34

You know. So you have to be your authentic self, and to be authentic, you have to share a little bit of vulnerability, or whatever word you want it to be, I’m not. You have to cry in front of 300 people.

Karan Rhodes  22:46

Yeah,

Joe Davis  22:46

Do you have time for a quick story on this vulnerability.

Karan Rhodes  22:48

Absolutely please.

Joe Davis  22:49

You can literally just say, I don’t know. I had a colleague. I asked him about when to see, you know where he feels vulnerable? And he said, Well, if I’m on a team and they getting stuck, and I can tell they’re going to ask me what I think they should do, and I don’t know. So before I say, I don’t know, I will leave the room. Now, how productive is that? I mean, one time, but he was afraid to admit he didn’t know that way. He didn’t want to be the vulnerable as a leader. I gotta have the answers. Gotta know. And he said, So, he said, one time I stayed in. I said, Well, you know, I don’t know either. He says, like this burst of energy came into the room. New ideas are general. If you don’t know, I don’t know. You know, it’s just a class example of when the leader or the boss, or whenever, when we share our own uncertainty and our own fears, you release others from there. Oh, well, they’re scared too. Okay, I can be scared or they’re lost. I can be lost, and I can talk about being lost, and now you can start to get more done, because you roadblocks. So that’d be my three Listen, really listen to learn. So essential. Number two is best you can try to understand where they’re coming from, their quote, unquote, lived experience. And you’ve got to share some of yourself if you want to lead people. Those are my three nuggets.

Karan Rhodes  24:07

They are a fantastic three. I wrote them down in my little notebook so I could make sure our copy editors included in the show notes, because I want to make sure those three are captured. And I absolutely love the stories behind them, and I wholeheartedly agree. So high five you through through our video. Well, just been amazing, but I cannot let you get out of here without asking you our signature question that we ask all of our guests and for my new listeners out there, a few years back, I commissioned a research study on some of the most important traits or tactics of high potential and high performing leaders, and out of that came seven buckets tactics that we documented and I all we always ask our guests on the podcast which of the seven most. It’s resonated with you because all seven are equally as important. All seven apply no matter what industry or career stage you’re in. You just use them at different times and in different ways. So Joe was so kind to share that courageous agility really resonated with him, and that is all about having the courage and the fortitude to, you know, stand up for what you believe in, but still take calculated risk to move the effort or initiative forward, even if you’re uncertain of what the feature may bring. It’s all about taking baby steps, even in the midst of fog when you’re not quite sure. So Joe, curious minds want to know why courageous agility really popped for you?

Joe Davis  25:46

Yeah, yeah. It’s funny, because I think a couple of things, if I thought about my leadership over the years, I mean, one, clearly, what you just said, ties to this whole idea of being a little bit vulnerable, you know, okay, well, let me take a chance and expose that I’m a little lost to or I don’t know, and you know, that’ll help us all move forward. So, you know, when I hear that term, I that’s one thing. The other thing I big believer in is, if you’re as a leader, you have to make decisions. That’s your job, right? But you know, and some people make them stubbornly, maybe not with full data, and then what they’re wrong. They stick to it. So when I heard the word, hear the word of Jilly, I’ll say, because I’m people say to me, Oh, you might make a decision. This new data comes here all you just change your mind. So Well,

Karan Rhodes  26:29

Yeah, but we said make calculated, and calculated risk is taking that data and making the best decision

Joe Davis  26:36

You make the thing you can at the moment, but, but the important point is, if you’re off, just be willing be vulnerable to vulnerable enough to move. That’s right. And you know, that’s where you get in trouble if you don’t have as you cut crazy Jill, if you say no, no, I made a call. I got, I know the answer. I you get stuck, or something gets stuck, or people get hurt, you know? So I just thought, you know, that’s, what resonates with me, is take a chance. Get what you can. Take a chance. Make a decision if new stuff comes in, be agile and change your mind. I mean, whatever.

Karan Rhodes  27:09

That’s right. And I’d love to remind our audience that just because you are leading, and you can lead at any level career stage that you’re in, as Joe mentioned, it’s not all about you being the only one to make the final decision. Leading is all about leading conversations with your colleagues and teams as well, to get to some great options for you all jointly, to kind of make a decision now that maybe the final check off or okay or stamp of approval may come with you, and you’ve got to own that. And, you know, carried up through the leadership chain chain. But I love what you say, Joe about, you know, just being open up and being vulnerable, because it gives people the permission to chip in and help, and they find so much happiness about being part of the process

Joe Davis  27:59

Being included, yeah. No, I know.

Karan Rhodes  28:01

give em buy in, yeah.

Joe Davis  28:03

I was listening to a leader once say that your job, if you walk in the room, is not to come up with the best answer in the room. Your job is to come out of the room with the best answer. So

Karan Rhodes  28:14

There you go.

Joe Davis  28:15

The best answer comes from the room. It doesn’t come from you. That’s

Karan Rhodes  28:19

That’s right. I always share this, the knowledge is in the room. You’re just facilitating the conversation.

Joe Davis  28:26

Then it goes back to a lot of things. You gotta listen to them, really, etc. Yes,

Karan Rhodes  28:31

Absolutely. Well, Joe, we’re gonna have a ton of information about you and your background in our show notes, but I always love to give our guests air time to share, where they can find out more about you or connect with you, if desired. So is there a desired place or website? Is it LinkedIn,

Joe Davis  28:51

Well, you just said.

Karan Rhodes  28:53

Not BCG because you’re out of there,

Joe Davis  28:55

You can find me, but that’s gonna work. No, I think LinkedIn, to your point, is the easiest. And since I wrote this book, I’ve become a more active user at that and I do have a website, joedavis.com, but I, you know, I if someone really wanted to connect the message thing on LinkedIn, there, I will read them and I’ll respond

Karan Rhodes  29:14

There you go.

Joe Davis  29:16

I like to

Karan Rhodes  29:18

All right listeners, where you’ll know how to find Joe. If you don’t remember, just check out the show notes. We’ll have that link there, and I’m sure he’ll be happy to respond and help you in any way he can. But so. But thank you so much, Joe for the gift of your time. Today. It has been fantastic.

Joe Davis  29:34

Thank you, Karan, it’s a lot of fun,

Karan Rhodes  29:36

Oh, awesome. And thank you to listeners for the gift of your time, because, as I always say, there are literally millions of other podcasts out there, and we do not take your patronage slightly. All that we ask is that you like and subscribe to the show and to share the show with just one friend, because by doing so, we can all get smart about leading at the top of our game. Thank you so much, and see you next week. You. And that’s our show for today. Thank you for listening to the lead at the top of your game podcast, where we help you lead your seat at any employer, business, or industry in which you choose to play. You can check out the show notes, additional episodes, and bonus resources, and also submit guest recommendations on our website at leadyourgamepodcast.com. You can follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn by searching for the name Karan Rhodes with Karan being spelled K a r a n. And if you like the show, the greatest gift you can give would be to subscribe and leave a rating on your podcast platform of choice. This podcast has been a production of Shockingly Different Leadership, a global consultancy which helps organizations execute their people, talent development, and organizational effectiveness initiatives on an on-demand, project, or contract basis. Huge thanks to our production and editing team for a job well done. Goodbye for now.